Interview with Paul Hennessy (January 2000)

This is an interview with Paul Hennessy the biggest promoter in the UK and one of the biggest in Europe. As well as promoting he used to work for the WKA and also manages many of the top fighters in England, as well as being the K1 rep for the UK.

You started off in semi-contact kickboxing and karate?
That's right it was the 80's boom time, I started training in 1983. My brother was involved in karate promotions and I agreed to help him. This was around 1984, 1985 time and we had 600-800 competitors per tournament, though to be honest you couldnt fail at the time as this was the eight of the semi-contact era in the eighties. I was in my mid-20's then.

What about full contact?
My first full contact show was in 1988. I promoted my first world title event in 1990 Graham McGrath vs Rahid Elherdmi

How popular was muaythai at the time?
In the midlands there were schools everywhere though they were mainly kickboxing schools in this area there was some muaythai. But my early promotions were mostly kickboxing.

(Pic: Pele Nathan vs Winston Walker)

You used to teach as well?
Yes I was teaching karate professionally for about 10 years. At the highest point I had 6 karate schools with a total of about 400 members.

How did you first get involved with Paul Ingram?
Paul Ingram had a promotion at which the main event was a world title fight between Kash Gill and Alex Tui. I wasn't involved in promoting the event but had fighters on the undercard. Paul Ingram was organising this big event at the NEC and I was asked to work on it as a consultant and setup Kash Gills fight with American Ronnie Delson. Stuart Lane and myself ended up running most of the event. It was hard work, a 12,000 seater venue and too many people were involved.

Afterwards Paul approached me to join Stuart Promotions/WKA UK as a director/partner. I was promoting myself at the time and said that I wouldn't get involved unless there was a TV contract for the shows.

Paul Ingram then arranged a 3 year contract with TransWorld Sport International and I agreed to join. In 1993 we held 6 events that were shown on Sky Sports with also 50 hours of repeat time. With these events Stuart Promotions lost 40K and TWI also lost money and cancelled the contract after the first year.

Throughout these events we were the UK representatives for the WKA and we noticed from attending meetings there were internal organisation problems. So Paul Ingram decided to buy the sanctioning rights from Dale Floyd the then president. I setup Ronnie Green vs Peter Cunningham at the Mirage in Las Vegas as part of the undercard of Bennie "The Jet" Urquidez's retirement fight. Whilst there a meeting was held with the WKA the day after and we took control with the presidency passing form Dale Floyd to Paul Ingram. It was a coup, an unfriendly takeover if you like. Fred Royers who I was friends with at the time wouldn't accept Paul Ingram as president and I didn't relish the animosity. However after 3 months of political manoeuvring we eventually came out on top with 90% of the WKA backing us. That could be my one regret, losing a friendship over business. But we were right to do what we did there was far too much nepotism. For example in the 6 events we organised in 1993 we paid 7,000 pounds in sanctioning fees, yet we were told that the WKA had no money. If you think about that fact that were one country out of many, then that begs some questions.

When we took over there were 2 offices one in Holland and one in Canada. The offices weren't working as closely together as they should have been, there were inconsistent ratings, double sanctioning of the same title etc. The first thing we did was major restructuring with a centralised office in the UK.

In the three year period that I was with the WKA it's membership more than doubled and we were sanctioning 4 times the number of events. Results were published weekly and the ratings were as accurate as possible, being updated every 2 months.

I'm proud of the work that I did with the WKA but I resigned in 1996. the real reason was I was a promoter and its's what I really wanted to focus on. For the WKA I was working on 10 events in up to 60 countries per month, but I was still promoting and managing it was a 12 hour day everyday.

Whereabouts were you promoting then? It was mainly in the UK. I had ideas about how to do better events etc. The first of these was the Night Of Truth: featuring Kirkwood Walker. I also wanted to develop proper management of fighters careers, getting them better purses etc. Kirkwood Walker was a full time pro and I negotiated his highest purse for him.

Who are you managing at the moment?

Kirkwood Walker, Winston Walker, Peter Crooke, Mark Russell, Ricky Nicholson, Richard Smith.. too many to mention them all, about 30-40 in total.

What would you say was your best promotion?
That's a tough one, I'd say I got the most pleasure out of the first Night Of Truth and a couple of the Stewart Promotions.Kash Gill vs Mike "the Cobra", Kirkwood Walker vs Musashi. There's too many to chose form. I guess technically the best, in terms of presentation was the first K1-UK event last year.

What'd you think of the WKA now then?
The WKA is not how it used to be, more work needs doing. What a sanctioning body has to do is give promoters a good service, value for money. The WKA will always be in the top 5 sanctioning bodies though because of its history.

(Pic:Musashi vs Walker)

So what'd you think of the current state of muaythai/kickboxing with all the different politics and organisations out there?
I don't like the alphabet soup sanctioning bodies there's loads of them. When I left the WKA a lot of people approached me about setting up a new organisation. There were people wanting to invest a lot of money and I also had offers from WAKO-pro, ISKA. However I said no as I wanted to stick to promoting. Nowadays I refuse to get involved with any new sanctioning bodies. I decided initially for sanctioning my promotions to work with WAKO-Pro. Their president in Italy Ennio Falsoni is a businessman and is trustworthy. As a promoter and manager, if you pay a sanctioning fee then what you want in return if one of your fighters wins a title is for that fighter to get work abroad from winning that title, To date every fighter that has won a world/European WAKO-pro title in England has either fought or been offered fights abroad as a result.

(Pic:Stan vs Musashi)

Initially I refused to work with the ISKA as some people there were less than trustworthy. But 2-3 years ago things changed in the ISKA, there was a big shake up some people resigned and others were fired. An old friend, the former Italy representative for the WKA, Carlo Di Blasi, took control of ISKA Europe and he contacted me. I then agreed to do some ISKA sanctioned events on the same basis as the arrangement with the WAKO-pro, that fighters would get work abroad as a result of winning. I believe that a UK based promoter using a UK based organisation is silly. If you are serious then why fight for a "mickey mouse" title. WKA/WAKO.ISKA should communicate and work together to stunt the growth of the smaller organisations and help to promote the sport. The World Muaythai Council is not going as it should. As a promoter I was initially very excited by the WMC and was hoping it would come to the fore, at last there might be just one organisation for muaythai. However like many others it is bogged down in politics and nepotism which is a great shame.

What are your favourite fighters, who are you a fan of?
Well I've been everywhere around the world so if we do it by the main countries:
Holland:Rob Kaman, Ernesto Hoost
France: Danny Bill is awesome! Jean-Charles Starbuski
Thailand: Johmod, Samai
Japan: Masato and Musashi from the heavyweights.
America: Maurice Smith, Rick Roufus. I saw Benny Urquidez fight when he was 41, but he was amazing even then he really impressed me.
Australia: Stan "The Man", Ian Jakobs, Alex Tui

What about the English fighters?
I can honestly say that I believe pound-for-pound Peter Crooke is best fighter in the country. Out of the upcoming fighters: Neil Woods, Warren Brown, Damien Trainor and Chris MacDonald. I also think Ricky Nicholson is capable of doing more than he is showing at the moment. Out of the established fighters I would like to say that Ronnie Green doesn't get anywhere near the respect/publicity that he deserves, Nobody has got near to him in terms of what they've achieved, only Kirkwood Walker has come vaguely close. Also Mark Russel is starting to fulfill his potential.

What's the worst incident that you've seen at any promotion that you've been to?
It's hard to say what exactly the worst is. One thing that stands out in my memory is armed security at events in Kirgistan and Mormansk, When your escort and host are carrying sidearms it's more than a little intimidating.

So what sort of pay do your fighters get for their title fights?
I can't really discuss that for confidentiality reasons. What I can tell you is that on a regular basis we negotiate five figure purses.

(Pic: Stan with the Weaver boxing family)

What about your work for the K1, how did that come about?
I met Mr Ishii in 1993, in Sydney, Australia. I was there for a promotion with Gary Sunderland vs Stan The Man as the main event. There was Atokawa and Tai-kin fighting on the undercard. After the show I congratulated the Japanese fighters on their wins and they introduced me to Mr Ishii and we exchanged business cards. Then in 1994 I started working with the K1 corporation, The first fight I organised with them was Gary Sunderland vs Michael Thompson. Around that time the K1 was dominated buy Dutch or Dutch-managed fighters. For example in the 1994 Grand Prix there were 6 Dutch managed fighters at the tournament. Mr Ishii asked me to get involved with matching/supplying new heavyweight fighters for the K1 circuit. I was employed by K1 as a consultant at the time.
I introduced Mike Bernado (South Africa) and Jerome Lebanner (France) who became major K1 stars as well as some others who didn't make it. Basically since 1994-today I've worked closely with the K1 on many events and when they decided to expand in 2000 I was offered the K1-UK promotion.

Some people have suggested that maybe the K1 Corporation should start sanctioning some world titles, do you think this is a good idea?
No I don't think so, it's successful because it stays away from politics though it has world titles sanctioned by other organisations on some of its shows. I think K1 is a promising future but it shouldn't be a sanctioning body as it would be a mistake. The tournament system is a successful. Lots of people originally disliked elimination tournaments and in the previous years there was only one 16 man elimination event. I had reservations about the fighters themselves sustaining injuries. BUT the 2000 final was the biggest and most successful yet with over 70,000 spectators and the highest ever TV rating with over 25 million viewers. So the tournament system proved very popular with the Japanese fans. They believe because of the elimination tournaments that they are seeing the strongest fighters in the world. Kickboxing/Muaythai will never have K1 finances. The corporation is worth millions and is trying to expand worldwide. If it's a success then it will be great for everyone in the sport.

What'd you think of the other promotions that you've seen, how'd you rate them?
Master Toddy is sorely missed, he promoted great events an I was inspired by some of his shows. I believe that muaythai in the UK has gone backwards since he went to the US. In the early 90's Master Sken held a show in Bolton, featuring the likes of Humphrey Harrison, Coban, Orono, Michael Loofat and Ornaldo Wiet. This was one of the best muaythai events in the UK and since then has yet to be surpassed. I believe that kickboxing and muaythai fans didn't realise how well off they were in the early 90's it was a golden era. Other than that I don't rate anyone else. How I do/judge a promotion is if I would buy a ticket. If it wasn't my show would I buy a ticket to see Warren Brown vs Kieran Keddle, yes I probably would. If I feel that I wouldn't buy a ticket then I wont put the show on. The public are mislead by promoters. Some publicity releases are crazy, when you think that people are parting with hard-earned cash. Maybe you should do show ratings on the web site.

So how do you think the situation could be improved?
On UK terms, with regards to kickboxing the road ahead is not easy, there are too many champions. One step forward would be one clear cut British Champion. I would quite happily drop WAKO/ISKA for one British title, it would improve the sport overnight. With muaythai the same thing, 1 British champion. Also not enough people are fighting under full muaythai rules. We are trying now to promote more full rules fights. I see many problems politically for muaythai though.

To close with, is there anything else you are currently involved in that you would like to tell us about ?
I've just started promoting professional boxing (Showsport Boxing), We've had one successful event and there are more to come, mainly small hall shows. I still intend to do kickboxing/muaythai, it's just another string to the bow so to speak.

Paul's next show: