Interview with Phil Williams (January 2002)

Muaythai Online would like to state that the views expressed by Phil Williams are not necessarily their own and disclaim any responsibility for any of the comments.

Phil Williams is known as a former fighter, trainer and promoter who has been involved in the sport for nearly 2 decades and is still only 27 (apparently he had a long paper round). This is an interview with his opinions on todays Muay Thai situation.

Next weeks interview is with Miguel Reyes of Mexico one of the K1 Middleweight competitors.

Hello. First of all how did you get involved in the sport?
I first started training with Russ Williams about 18 years ago in Holywell North Wales, where I am from. It was a mix of Thai Boxing, Kung fu and self defence. I enjoyed it but soon started playing football and returned about 2 years later when he was just teaching Thai and kickboxing and was then totally addicted. I used to travel at the weekends to Manchester to train with Toddy and Master A occasionally, but virtually all of my training was done with Russ Williams.

How many fights have you had and who have you fought?
I've had about 43 fights (I think, although I have lost count) where I won about 34 of them. I have fought a lot of big names over the years, including Brian Taylor (Rama), Karl Kilbride (Alby Bimpson), Ashley Guishard (Pele's Gym), Ewart Liburd (Sale), Jim Caldicourt (Brighton), Eval Denton (Wolverhampton), Dylan Carter (Burnley), Lloyd Lewis (Cardiff) and many many more. I fought a lot of these fighters under all three sets of rules, kickboxing, muay-thai and full-contact.

What were your most memorable fighting experiences?
First of all my favourite venue was and still is the Northgate Arena in Chester. I have fought here twice and both times sold over 300 tickets and won both fights by KO. It's a great venue with a great atmosphere and seats nearly 2000 spectators.
However one of the worst experiences I had was when I fought Eval Denton in Birmingham. Nobody really gave me a chance of winning the fight as it was at the peak of Eval's career and I had only had three Thai-boxing fights, however I believed in myself and wanted to fight him. I fought a clever fight and I was the first person in this country to drop Eval, in fact I dropped him twice in one round. I believe I only lost maybe one round. However, in spite of winning the first two rounds with knockdowns and finishing the last round with my best, the judges robbed me! Still to this day people say to me that it is one of the worst decisions ever seen. After the fight I requested a video from the WMTO who promoted and sanctioned the show, coincidentally the last round was missing from the video, how convenient, so the fight was impossible to score from a neutral opinion. Ever since then I have sworn that both myself and my fighters would not get involved or support a minor sanctioning body as it is detrimental to everybody.

Why did you stop fighting?
One of the main reasons was corruption. After the video incident on the Eval fight exactly the same thing happened again. I fought Dylan Carter and again I felt I was robbed, this time under full contact rules. I asked for the video and again a round was missing, the one where he went down for a count from body kicks. I began to feel sick with the sport and the final nail in the coffin was when I fought Jim Caldicourt under his preferred full contact rules at short notice (he has just won the ISKA World middleweight title) where I had sold 300 tickets and didn't get paid a penny even though I knocked him out in the first round. I then had some personal problems and put on extra weight but with nothing to train for I pretty much lost heart, even though last year I had a couple of fights at heavyweight. Unfortunately I broke my arm for the 5th time in 7 years. I have decided to put my energy and experiences into helping my students.

What do you think of today's fighters and their opportunities?
I like many others feel that the quality of the fighters and their attitudes are not as they were 10 years ago. I don't think there was a fighter like Ronnie Green or Pele Nathan who would turn down a fight under rules they didn't like because it wasn't Thai boxing or full contact, they just used to fight all three rules at the same time and change accordingly to what was available, also their simply not as good as the fighters a decade ago. Nowadays if it's not Muay Thai people won't entertain it. However this is silly as certain Thai boxers and Muay Thai fighters would benefit from the occasional full contact or kickboxing fight. I also believe that a lot of the fighters attitudes from certain gyms stink! They seem to think that promoters owe them something, I just generally think that people cut of their nose to spite their face where as they won't go to a show if it's not full-contact or Thai-boxing. Obviously my preferred style is Muay Thai but some of the best fights I've seen have been full contact.

Why did you start promoting?
I started promoting when I left University. I promoted so fighters could get the opportunities that I never had and I wanted to offer something genuine to the paying public. I have brought fighters from Spain, Japan, New Zealand, Holland, Ireland, France and Algeria to fight on my shows. Although it has not been plain sailing. I once paid a sanction fee in excess of £1000 to Billy Murray to sanction an ISKA World Title only to discover he hadn't forwarded any money to the ISKA in the US and the World Title was never recognised the guy is a blatant thief! I then tried to bring some Thai's over to fight but this was sabotaged out of spite by certain members of the UKMF. I have also lost thousands of pounds trying to promote the sport. I believe I have put on some of the best and biggest shows in the country and even had the confidence to promote a show in the Caribbean!

You run the famous Heavy Hitters gym, tell us about it.

I set up Heavy Hitters 3 years ago with my partner Steve Goodwin, a boxing trainer who has helped train many World boxing Champions. We train amateur boxers, Professional boxers and Thai and Kick boxers. We have managed to in that short period of time to produce 4 World Champions. Dave Newbrook- World Full-Contact Champion, Kevin Kipling- World Amateur Full-Contact Champion, Ricky Nicholson- World Super Heavy Weight Kickboxing champion and Eugene Valerio- World Kickboxing Champion along with many other up and coming fighters, along with Steve's successes in boxing we are doing quite well. I have travelled to Finland, Ireland, Holland, France, Spain, Australia, Japan, USA, Caribbean, Cyprus... to name just a few, I've been lucky really.
Some of my current fighters have a lot of potential and I believe will be better than any of the others that I have produced. I have one young student, Adam Johnson who is probably the most talented fighter I have ever seen and who loves the sport with a passion, I have high hopes for him. I also have a fighter called Tam who was born in Thailand but who I have trained. He has never fought anywhere else, but has a traditional Thai style of fighting and will do well with more experience. I also have Trevor Saint who has had 8 KO's in his last 8 fights. At the moment I am focusing on getting Ricky ready for the K1 UK in Birmingham in March. He is most people's favourite to win the tournament after being runner up last time to Matt Skelton. I also have a show on February 3rd at Chester Racecourse where several of my best fighters will be fighting top names from around the country.

You have started promoting professional boxing recently, how is that going?
It's going quite well, although it has taken a lot of financial investment. Paul Hennessy and myself set up a company called Showsport Boxing that promoted fighters from the North West. I found even though the financial risks were greater, the boxers and the people in boxing were better and more professional to deal with. The boxers understand that to get anywhere in the sport they need to sell a lot of tickets. We have had some boxers that have sold over 300 tickets at £20 each yet they are happy because they get a career with direction and regular well paid purses. It's simple really, if they allow the promoter to make money, the fighter will make money that's why we have a promotional contract. Paul and I have taken a break from promoting boxing together for the time being until we get some more boxers to promote that sell tickets, so in the mean time I am working with Mike Goodall to gain some more experience.
That is what frustrates me about Thai boxing at the present time, fighters won't sell tickets yet expect to be paid well! Those Thai boxers that sell a handful of tickets yet want thousands of pounds won't fight on my shows anymore as they have to understand one of the two fighters fighting has to have a following.. That was the great thing about promoting Neil Woods he used to be paid well, was very well mannered and entertaining to watch yet brought a minimum of 200 people with him, simple equation really.

What did you think of Neil Woods walking away from the sport?
I was disappointed but I think the Muay Thai community has a lot to answer for in losing such a talented fighter. Everybody jumps ship all the time bouncing from one promoter to the other, one organisation to the other etc. People will travel to a dirty small hall show in one area because of politics yet wont go up the road to a smart high quality venue with decent fights and these are the kind of happenings you expect to see! In boxing I have paid people in excess of £5000 in my first year of promoting boxing, yet still managed to make a healthy profit without Television. It can be done in Muay Thai if people support the right shows. I don't believe there are enough benefits for many Muay Thai fighters to stay in the sport other than the love of it and a bit of pocket money.

You stopped promoting last year, why?
I got fed up with losing money and started promoting Professional Boxing more. The politics were too much and everybody thought they could promote, so I have just sat back. I think the sport is going backwards and more shows are putting on false titles and the stuff going on the TV is a disgrace! I also preferred to deal with more professional people so I just generally took time out. I will promote in the future but only the people I want to promote as I feel I have done my bit for the sport. I did a series of events called New Legends in Deeside which were very successful in every sense, that regularly pulled crowds of more than 1400 but I don't think I can be bothered promoting other peoples fighters for the time being as I have never got anything back other than a headache. I am actually looking forward to promoting in Chester on the 3rd February as a lot of the fighters are mine and the venue is beautiful with everybody being extremely well paid (and also I have some good sponsors!)

What do you see in the future for you and Muay Thai?
Not sure really. Its not looking good to be honest but then again I think a lot of people who are greedy and jealous have themselves to blame. I think somebody is going to get seriously hurt if we are not careful and then we will all try and pass the book! Its a shame but that is what I feel as there is still no governing body that can be held accountable.
Regarding myself, I am just going to carry on with Professional boxers, promoting & training them - I seem to be making good money. I may then kick some of it back into Muay Thai when I am ready....just watch this space!
I met John Wayne Parr and have intentions of hpefully bringing him over for a few months to promote him in England later this year.

Thanks for your time Phil
Its a pleasure and thanks for listening to my opinion. Finally, I thinks its worth saying thank you to a couple of people. Thanks to Russ Williams for the early days, thanks to Colin Heron for training me and help me with some of my fighters in the later days (they are better now!) and Paul Hennessy for allowing me to travel all over the World regularly with both Kickboxers and Thai boxers, and also teaching me invaluable lessons about promoting, he also has the patience of a saint, believe me! I would also like to add I think the ratings on this web site as very well done and will hopefully be a push for the sport in the right direction, even though I might not agree with every position!